In Memory Of Christian Forum Discussions...

[philosoraptor42]

that_atheist's most recent post gives yet another example of apologetic methods used on religious or non-religious internet forums. In this case it's the old "I'm sure you'd agree" method of asserting truisms in order to sound reasonable and like a moderating voice of reason.

Actually I've no idea where that_atheist discovered this apologetics trope. I'm just guessing religious or non-religious forums because that's where I used to see that sort of thing. There were a few forums I used to visit, but I've just not really seen the point for quite a while now. I've been back to freeratio a number of times, but my hearts just not in it anymore, but it's also been a long time since I went to the faithspace forums. I decided to see what they are like these days. Well, on the one hand membership of the forum is lower than ever before, but on the other hand the regulars haven't changed a bit.

Now I could give vague charicatures of the various figures on that forum, but what I found particularly entertaining was watching a debate between Martin, who lacks (... um... what's the internet equivalent of oratory skills?) clarity sometimes, and Jan, who is a Christian spiritualist and believes in all sorts of new age woo. Martin was getting frustrated in just the way I always used to be.



Here are some highlights from one thread...

Martin:
There is no evidence that has satisfied proper experimental scrutiny, of the existence of such a thing as a soul.  Just as there is none for the existence of minotaurs or zombies.

Jan:
Is there any point in me actually answering you on that?

The Electronic Voice Phenomenon (Spirit Voices on Tape), Instrumental Transcommunication (two-way communication with those who crossed over), the SCOLE Experiments, Out of Body Experiences, Near Death Experiences, Empirical Materialisation,  Trans and Mental Mediumship; Poltergeists, Xenoglossy and Reincarnation,  the Cross-Correspondences, Proxy Sittings. In relation to the issue of materialization, this lawyer also discusses Prof Albert Einstein's E=mc2.

Spiritualist Churches all over the world gathering and receiving messages from loved ones in Spirit via gifted mediums.

(When Jan says "this lawyer" she is referring to Victor Zammit, an Australian ex-lawyer who insists that life after death has been demonstrated, because legal standards are -apparently- better than scientific standards. *facepalm* She regularly links to his website. Discussions about Zammit can be found here.)

Respected scientists who investigated here.

Martin:
The Electronic Voice Phenomenon

"Electronic voice phenomena (EVP) are electronically generated noises that resemble speech, but are not the result of intentional voice recordings or renderings. Common sources of EVP include static, stray radio transmissions, and background noise. Interest in the subject normally surrounds claims that EVP are of paranormal origin, though there are natural explanations such as apophenia (finding significance in insignificant phenomena), auditory pareidolia (interpreting random sounds as voices in their own language), equipment artifacts, or simple hoaxes which are offered to explain them. Recordings of EVP are often created from background sound by increasing the gain (i.e. sensitivity) of the recording equipment."

"At least one study, by psychologist Imants Barušs, finds that EVP cannot be replicated under controlled conditions."

"There are a number of simple scientific explanations that can account for why some listeners to the static on audio devices may believe they hear voices, including radio interference and the tendency of the human brain to recognize patterns in random stimuli. Some recordings may be hoaxes created by frauds or pranksters."

Jan:
well - what is your point?

Martin:
Let's have a look at the list of 'respected scientists' you post as supporting your cause.

Sir William Barrett F.R.S. - 1844 - 1925

Sir Oliver Lodge F.R.S. - 1851- 1940

Sir William Crookes 1832 - 1919

Dr. James Hervey Hyslop - 1854 -1920

Emmanuel Swedenborg - 1688 - 1772

Thomas Alva Edison - 1847 - 1931

George W. Meek was a retired industrialist who had revolutionized the air-conditioning industry!

etc. etc. etc.

Jan:
what - just because a scientist is from a different era - we are to believe all of their findings are incorrect? Incomplete they might be sometimes - but incorrect?

Jan's argument for the existence of spirits includes evidence as flimsy as white noise on cassette tapes. She also doesn't see any problem that the most recent scientist she can reference in regard to spirits died in 1940. (Though perhaps if you had a conversation with such scientists during last week's seance, the argument is made a little stronger... :P )

This is pretty typical of her arguments and it's this sort of frustrating debate where Jan seems to be oblivious to any possible criticisms of her position while accusing any critics of being "closed minded" that made me realise that religious forums like this simply are not worth the effort.